The Ladder and the Lamp – A Conversation Between Peter Witz and Dr. Graves

Peter Witz: Dr. Graves, I came across something recently—an old metaphor that describes the soul as a ladder. Each rung represents a different level of awareness, or perhaps refinement. The more I thought about it, the more I began to see it mirrored everywhere: in dreams, in traditions, even in the structure of the self.

Dr. Graves: A powerful image, Peter. The ladder is ancient indeed. Some say it was first dreamed by a man asleep with a stone for a pillow. Others see it hidden in the design of temples, or encoded in the lines of the body. But always it represents this idea: that we are not fixed. That we are meant to move. Upward, inward, downward, again and again.

Peter Witz: And yet, every step upward demands something. A letting go. A reordering of what we think we know. It reminds me of how some traditions speak of refining the breath, not just to survive, but to see—to become clear.

Dr. Graves: Yes. Just as the breath flows between silence and sound, the ladder exists between stillness and movement. There is no ascent without intention. Some say the ladder is lit by a lamp—a light within us that grows stronger as we move closer to our source. Others call this the inner flame, or the indwelling wisdom. Whatever the name, it guides us, one rung at a time.

Peter Witz: Then what are we climbing toward?

Dr. Graves: A good question, Peter. Some would say toward truth. Others, toward remembrance. But the ladder does not always lead upward. Sometimes, descent is required—to retrieve a part of the self we’ve buried, or to offer light to the places we've abandoned.

Peter Witz: So the ladder is not just about progress, but about balance. Between rising and returning. Between light and shadow.

Dr. Graves: Exactly. The great systems—whether built on sound, breath, or symbol—all recognize this rhythm. There are ten pathways, some say. Others speak of twelve channels, or seventy-two names. But always, there is movement—spiraling between the hidden and the revealed.

Peter Witz: And each rung changes us. What was invisible becomes visible. What we feared becomes familiar. And perhaps, what we believed to be separate—body, mind, spirit—begins to feel like one thing again.

Dr. Graves: That is the light of the lamp, Peter. The more it shines, the more the illusion of separation fades. In the end, perhaps the ladder is not something we climb at all. Perhaps it is something we become.

Peter Witz: Then let us keep climbing—not to reach a destination, but to remember what was always within us.